Talk:Stockwell Day

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Clarified why Day wrote the letter regarding Lorne Goodard

I made it clearer as to why Day felt compelled to write the letter regarding Lorne Goodard. It also helps explain way there was little negative reaction the letter in Alberta or Red Deer.(Progressive Conservatives were re-elected in a massive landslide in the next election dispite the Liberals attempts to make the letter an issue).

Possibly he was compelled by the same bad judgements he showed while he was leader of the party. His basic lack of meaningful education is also probably a contributing factor.

ACE curriculum controversy

As I remember it, the controversy over the ACE curriculum had to do with anti-semitic lessons. This is not to say, of course, that Day is/was an anti-semite, which my edit doesn't mean to imply but some may misinterpret. Can anyone improve it?

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Opening sentence word order

I am starting a discussion here after having come across a discussion at BLP/N

Tagging the involved users here, 164.64.118.102, MauriceYMichaud and Jiffles1. I think it's worth taking a look at the discussion referred to by Schazjmd in the above BLP discussion (which is already closed with a recommendation to discuss here). There appears to be no community wide consensus on the matter. I tend to be of the opinion that we shouldn't use "former" or "retired" in opening sentences at all (unless overwhelmingly supported by RSs), so I really have no dog in this war other than that position here and would raise that as a third option/compromise. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 05:08, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't mean to start a war... Sorry about that! But it's definitely a question of style as to whether "Canadian" should come before "former." There were many pages, not just this one, where the wording was "Canadian former politician," and while it irked me each time I read it, I would let it slide. But then someone (sorry for not remembering who) systematically changed dozens if not hundreds of pages to "former Canadian politician" which, I admit, I thought was better. So I guess now seeing someone starting to revert to a form I think is off has hit a nerve in me.

I do understand how someone could interpret or apply "former" in "former Canadian politician" as adverbial to "Canadian," but it should be read as applying to the noun cluster "Canadian politician." If the adjective were one that referred to something other than nationality, we probably would not be having this discussion. For instance, I don't think we would be tempted to say "a conservative former politician"; we would more naturally write "a former conservative politician" (with a lowercase "c" in this case to refer to the general political leaning rather than a specific political party -- although once "Liberal" by name, the BC Liberals, which have rebranded to BC United, had more affinity with the federal Conservative Party than the federal Liberal Party, but I digress).

Let's pretend for argument (because I can't think of an actual example off the top of my head) that Conrad Black had been an elected politician rather than a newspaper publisher. He is someone who had once given up his Canadian citizenship. And let's say he had given up his citizenship after having been a politician. He would have been Canadian while he was a politician, so might it not be more appropriate to refer to him as "a former ex-Canadian politician," with "former" applying to the "ex-Canadian politician" noun cluster? MauriceYMichaud (talk) 11:07, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there! I was the one who went around systematically changing "Canadian former politician" to either "former Canadian politician" or simply "Canadian politician." I hadn't realized there had been a broader, unresolved discussion on the matter and, until I was pinged here, I believed I was making an innocuous grammatical correction. It was not my intention to start an edit war. I apologize.

I like the idea of dropping "former" as a compromise. A politician does not necessarily have to hold public office and can refer to anyone still involved in party politics. One could even argue that calling someone a "former" politician is original research unless we have reliable sources explicitly saying they are no longer politically active.

If we are going to go the "former" route, my preference would be for "former Canadian politician" since it seems to be the more grammatically correct option. I also feel "former Canadian politician" sounds more natural. While I understand the "he's still Canadian" argument, I don't believe readers are likely to interpret "Day is a former Canadian politician" to mean "Day is a formerly Canadian politician" since all the context clues indicate he's still Canadian. For example, a Canadian politician losing their citizenship is an almost mythically rare occurrence and, if he had given up his citizenship, there would be a mention of his current nationality. Jiffles1 (talk) 17:15, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I couldn't agree more, Jiffles1! Either "former Canadian politican," or dropping "former" entirely unless there's evidence that the person in question has definitely turned their back from politics.

If this is a war, it's certainly a friendly one! I think it's more of a disagreement coming from grammar nerds, which I freely admit to being. :) MauriceYMichaud (talk) 16:51, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]